13 year old Dad

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2233878.ece
This is quite concerning...

I am thankful they did not choose abortion. Adoption is always an option, but it is their right to decide. Their youth is now over. They will manage but it will take the parents to help out. Her age is not as much a concern as his. His immaturity shows in his comments. But people need to quit harping on the fact that he does not realize what he has gotten into and need to help him cope. It is done, the baby is here and they all need love and support.

She comes from a broken family of 8 and his father has 9 (NINE) children.
The whole lot have 1 job between them!!
They are the very definition of white trash and are probably too stupid to think about abortion, which would have been the best option all round, several generations ago!!
Now there is yet another member of this growing under class here in the UK, who go from cradle to grave without ever putting any effort into their lives or contributing anything to society!
The whole country is in a mess and we have thousands of families who are completely reliant on state benefits, just because it is the easiest option.
The famous class system in the UK used to be "Upper Class", Middle Class", and "Working Class".
Now we have another layer of scum who just know how to breed and claim benefits.
This "couple" are typical of the rot that is eating into the morals of a once proud nation!
Unfortunately our timid politicians are too weak to do anything to stop that rot, so the birth rate will just continue to rise and the state of this country will continue to fall.
Abortion and sterilisation are the answer but there is not one politician who has the balls to stand up for what is right!
If one did, they would win an election by a land slide!!

ROFL, I wont even bother arguing your point of view. But how in the world can you put the word "morals" in the same post as this other trash? What morals? These folks might be "white trash" and a drain on your welfare system, and too lazy to lift a finger to help themselves, and plagued by the same lack of godlessness that is your problem, but what gives YOU the right to decide who is worthwhile and should live and who is scum that should die? What makes you any different than Hitler who simply wanted to get rid of the trash that plagued his country?

Believe me, we have the same problem here. All the flak that Bush got for hurricane Katrina? The problem was that most of the folks it wiped out were the same class as you describe. They ignored the warnings, they had no insurance, most werent even paying for their houses thanks to Fanny Mae, and most were only part time seasonal workers who only did something when it suited them. After the hurricane, instead of looting the things they would need to survive, most of them were hitting X-Boxes and nike sneakers. How stupid can a human be? Why do you think the area is still not rebuilt? Bush's fault? Come on, why should we foot the bill for these lazy slobs? Yet...We did. My church was active in the immediate relief as were just about every church in this country. Men came in from every state to rebuild, without ever getting paid a dime. The effort goes on to this day. Helping other humans who, for whatever reason, cannot help themselves. THAT is what makes a proud, moral nation. Not killing off half your population because YOU deem them unfit.

How do you know what this baby will do in her life? She may cure the cancer that will almost kill you! Or she could just be another welfare queen sucking up your tax money. You dont know. But I think she has just as much right to life as you or I do.

13 years and dad? Man, he is surely in hurry.
I really hope baby wont suffer his parents irresponsibility. I don't mind them keeping baby, but I am sure they have no idea what they are in, and baby could suffer consequence. I mean having child at 13 is stupid. I would expect at least her to think what she is doing, if he didn't. I disagree with abortion, but adoption at their age would be totally acceptable and expected.
I hope that baby will have good life, when she grows up.

The girl looks mature than that boy but how could she act like this without brain!
Damn I am out of words!

Well I fully expected one of the brain washed brigade to come in with the religious B/S on this thread.
I knew also that somewhere along the line we would be subjected to the America does it better crap but you ticked both boxes in one post!
Well done!!

So now on to the truth about what I wrote and not the illusion you seem to be under!
I never said anything about killing anyone. (Aborting a foetus is not killing someone it is aborting a foetus :eek2

In today's press is

so I stand by what I posted, in that Alfie's dad should have been prevented from breeding, as should the other "loving parents and grand parents" in these dysfunctional families.

How you manage to liken this pathetic bunch of scrounging scum, to a city full of people, who were left to perish in a natural disaster which the whole world knew was coming, is just beyond comprehension and just because your church sent a few tins of beans and a couple of old blankets doesn't exonerate your nation from the disgusting abandonment of your own people!

You liken me to Hitler.
Well aren't you the good christian?
I think more along the lines of the New York mayor who brought zero tolerance to your fellow Americans!!
I don't have the right to decide who lives and who dies but I am still allowed to express my opinion and I can still make my own decisions regarding what is right and what is wrong.
In my opinion the good of the whole society should be the most important consideration and individual rights can be sorted out after that.
If several generations of one family chose not to contribute to, and defile the moral code of, any society, they forgo the right to be a part of that society.
Having nine children and leaving the state to care for them should be a crime and should be punished severely.
Better still would be to prevent it happening in the first place, so if Alfie's dad, Dennis, had lost his crown jewels when he abandoned the first of his litter and it's mother, this situation would never have arisen.
I don't pretend to be something I'm not and I'm not so afraid of death that I have to take shelter in a make believe world of the here after, where I will go on forever.
I am my own conscience and I accept that if I do wrong, I will be punished by my fellow men and I am sensible enough to see that some things are just wrong and should be prevented no matter how unpleasant that task may be!

We now have the ludicrous situation where 14, 15 and 16 year old boys are trying to claim paternal rights to this child.
Why do they want to be named as the father in this instance when the usual reaction is total denial?
Simple!!
The same reason this story made the head lines in the first place!

They all think they can sell their story to the gutter press and make a fortune!
This all comes just a few months after another "loving" family locked their own daughter away for several weeks because they thought the press would would put up a reward which they could then claim for themselves!!
These people are not fit to have children and are not fit to live within a decent society.
In my opinion they should at least be removed from the gene pool and separated from the rest of us.
If that means prison fair enough but execution is legal in several states in your country!!

I could write a scathing response, but I am not going to bother. You are wrong on so many counts I hardly know where to begin. Actually, I do. God is the place you need to begin. But until you pull your head out of your butt and figure that one out there is no hope for you. I just leave you with one question, what is right and wrong? Under your system there can be no right and wrong, it is survival of the fittest, you are an accident and you cannot have any morals or rights.

This is a typical example of your incomplete thought process. If I were so afraid of death then why would I create a self-imposed hell to keep myself in line? Is it not easier to just die and perish, back into nothingness? That would not bother me one bit! But God is self-evident, it is you who are afraid to bear the cross so you bury your head in the sand and pretend it does not exist.

I stop here, I do not mind debating when maybe I can reason with my opponent. You are lost.

BTW, it is "fetus" and if it has a heart beat and brain function then it is a person. Try to talk yourself out of murder with semantics but it is your hangup. Maybe they should have sterilized you? I hate to think of the values you would instill in your children!

At least learn to use a dictionary before you show yourself up with your ignorance of the English Language on top of everything else!
Foetus is the correct English word, while Fetus is the one the Americans dumbed it down to!

Now what the definition of a person has to do with this I fail to see but I never implied that these low lives where anything other than people.
I just maintain that they should not be allowed to breed.
The method I would prefer to be used would be to prevent any of them having sex at all, therefore there would be no abortions and you wouldn't have to concern yourself over the definitions of what is, or is not an act of murder!

As for my children?

Well they were both raised to be open minded and they learnt about most religions, atheism and creationism. They were also taught Darwins theories and encouraged to decide for themselves what they believed!
As it is they both turned out to be a real credit to their mother and me and are getting along very well in life.
My daughter has come to the conclusion that life is all we've got and that while Darwin might not have got everything spot on he was nearer to the truth than any of your priests, so she has realised that all this god stuff is just a crutch for the weak and feeble.
Now my son on the other hand decided that Jesus rocks and has been a member of the catholic church for a few years.
He attends mass regularly and even sings in the church choir!
I've supported him all the way and though I feel his beliefs are wrong I do not try and influence him and I just accept that his opinion is different to mine.
When he is singing in a concert or performing in any other activity with an audience, I dig out my suit and I go along to watch and support him in what he is doing.
He is still young and I'm sure that as he matures he will come to realise that the ramblings of the priest are nothing more than silly fairy stories but if not, and he wants to believe, then that is up to him and I wont interfere!
You see I'm content with my lot and happy to let others believe what they want to!
Something you and your fellow god freaks will never understand!!

You obviously don't understand how that game is played in England!
These 2 will not even think about work or supporting themselves.
They will more than likely move into her home and claim state benefits until she is 16, when they will look to get a council flat were they will live rent free and probably continue to knock out children at an alarming rate for a good few years.
Once they have 3 kids they start to claim real money and then they can't afford to work because they could not earn any where near as much as they will be paid by the state!
They call it "Broken Britain" and there seems to be no way to mend it!!

Ah, my apologies. You are correct, I should not be surprised that you would spell fetus (\ˈfē-təs\ ) as foe-tus. Go figure...It would not be the first bit of English gibberish we Americans have had to correct.

That is really too bad about your son. Where do you think you went wrong? I am sure he will eventually come around when he gets older though.

One last thought to try to at least get this thread somewhat back on topic, did you ever consider simply changing the system before you go around sterilizing people or aborting foetuses?

My whole point with the hurricane Katrina example was to show that we have the same exact problems over here. The example does relate, go back and read what was posted in that thread in this forum by Americans who were there. America did not turn its back on a city, the city is rebuilt and functioning better than ever. Go see for yourself. What you see on TV are the poor neighborhoods that no one bothered coming back to. Why? Because the people that lived there abused the system and lived off of the government. There was no insurance on the property, most of the time the property was not even being paid for but the silly laws we have kept the banks from foreclosing. This is a major reason behind our current economic situation. The people did not come back because there was nothing to come back to, it wasnt theirs to begin with, they were little better than legal squatters living off of legal loopholes. The people themselves were given ample time to evacuate, but most refused. This greatly compounded an already bad situation. After the storm they simply moved on, to better breeding grounds where they could once again settle in and live off of welfare. I know what you read in your papers and see on your television, but like the report we are discussing here it is not a complete picture and it has been skewed to make points that do not exist. LA and MS has been treated no differently than my own state, Florida. Do your research on the hurricanes we have suffered and how our rebuilding went. We bounce right back time and again. Why? Because Florida does not have this welfare problem. Go walk through New Orleans, where we have responsible business owners and taxpaying, working citizens and see what they have done there.

So the problem exists everywhere. Exterminating people or preventing their reproduction like a pest control company controlling a ++++roach problem is not a solution. Where do you draw the line? Have you never been out of a job? How many generations does it take to make you this lower class citizen, and who is to say your next PM does not come from this class, pulled out by his/her own hard work and perseverance? I wont even get into the most powerful argument, who/what gives YOU the right to make this kind of decision. The only thing I can agree with is maybe offering free birth control. But this has negative implications also, and I am not sure that is really a solution.

The only real answer is to quit enabling this kind of behavior in the first place. Pull the rug out from under these leeches. Force them to work, at anything, to support themselves. People like me and Nivek's son will make sure no one starves, but we will not support them either. You want to fix your problem? Fix your government! And believe me, I understand how impossible that is because our government is just as broke and is only getting worse.

Back to these babies having babies...Let's not ascribe bigger motives to this situation that simply a 13 year old boy and a 14 year old (at the time) girl playing house. They are much too young to be plotting to steal your tax dollar by becoming a baby factory. They were fooling around and now they have to pay the price. Or their parents, or you, have to pay the price. If it were a stray puppy you found on the street would you not pick it up, take it home and care for it? Or find someone that could? We are talking about a human life here.

The problem is you, and we, allow this kind of stuff to happen.

What it has to do with the topic is it shows that we have the same exact problem with a welfare class that Nivek is showing. He is claiming that the UK has a special problem that no one will understand, not to mention his misinformation about the situation with the hurricane. I am showing that we have the same exact problem that he is using to justify sterilization or forced birth control of a whole class of people, British citizens at that. That is the underlying topic of this thread, at least that is what Nivek turned it into with his first response, and I will not argue that he has a valid point. This is the underlying problem, and there are women who act as "baby factories" in order to get larger benefits. Any parent will tell you that once you already have 3 or 4 kids then another mouth to feed and body to pass clothes down to is little expense compared to the relative benefits from the state. This is a problem for both our countries and it is this system that allows these people to get away with this that is the problem. It just happens that these underlying conditions were what led up to the situation before, during and after hurricane Katrina. This class of leechers is the real problem. But does this give us the right to make ethical decisions for them? Fix the system and you cure the problem.

It is a shame that this is even a question these days. More and more parents are pushing their duties off on others.

We can be certain that in this case these kids did not have the proper information from their parents. Most likely they have had very little information from their parents about anything. We cannot expect the children to be any better than the parents now can we?

Ultimately the parent is responsible for ensuring a child is educated. The state is meant to ensure that the parent fulfils that obligation.
For me the whole thing started to fall apart when "single mothers" became not only accepted but even encouraged!
The very foundation of our civilisations has been built upon the family unit which until 15-20 years ago was made up of a mother and father and their children all living together and looking out for each other.
Sure there were problems and not every relationship worked as it should but there was the one thing there which has vanished from our modern way of living.

Commitment!

The saying used to be that a couple only stayed together for the sake of the children.
Well that was generally a good reason!
Often enough couples worked through problems because they felt they had to stay together and eventually became so used to being with one another that they stayed together for the rest of their lives.
In recent times divorce has become easier and easier, relationships have become less meaningful and commitment has faded away.
The family unit is no more and the very structure that our societies were built upon has crumbled away!
The one parent family is now considered to be quite normal but we are now seeing the proof that it doesn't work.
Children need both a mother and a father because both parents play vital but separate roles in a child's life.
Generally a mother provides the love and comfort while the father sorts out the discipline and the security.
Without the security a child will tend to behave badly so without the discipline that behaviour just gets worse and worse.
Add to that all the human rights campaigners who would have our children believe that they have the right to do just about anything they please and we have a whole lot of screwed up kids who have never been taught right from wrong and truly believe that the world owes them and they can do as they please.
These messed up children then discover sex and have never learnt any self control, so they breed, and their off springs start from an even lower position and grow up to be even worse!
I know how I would turn it around but the day when I am in charge will never come so what will society in general do?
I think that mankind will just continue to devolve and everything will fall apart within a few more generations.
Global warming will not be an issue because most of mankind will have died out within 100-150 years!

Now that statement just proves my point because historically each generation has improved on the one before and mankind has evolved.
Now the cycle has gone into reverse and this time the end is nigh!

I cannot argue with a thing you said including the observation that our time, at least as we know it now, is very short. I just believe for a different reason. You may find this interesting, though you have probably already read it or know about it:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...il-partnerships-avoid-expensive-divorces.html

I especially agree with the statement that when a couple decides to stay together for the children's sake that more often than not the original problems will be forgotten in a few years. Trouble makes people grow together stronger if they would just give it a chance.